safe side in your estimation of the future value in 100 years of that timber. The present value of perpetual rental to be derived every 100 years from the karri country at 4 1/2 per cent. is £12 10s. The present value of the bigger timbered country, after the miller has taken everything away, is £12 10s. Add to that the value of the timber standing on the ground, which is much less than the future value, and you have the total value per acre. At present they have only regarded the value that they see before them, the timber that they could cut. The future value has never been considered.

12117. On your figures, the State would not be justified in selling the land for agricultural purposes unless it obtained an equivalent price?—No.

12118. The hard woods would, in course of time, become so much more valuable, that even then it might not be good policy to dispose of them?—The only part of Western Australia in which we could grow timber is that portion coloured red on this map within the 30in. rainfall. The development of this country, if it is developed in future, as it must be, will necessitate the supply of a large amount of timber. Generally speaking, it was considered by all the best authorities that 25 per cent. of the area capable of supporting an agricultural community should be reserved for forestry purposes. That is the percentage which Germany has laid down, and France has aimed at. It is the percentage which England is now aiming at. She has already laid down a scheme for doing this. When I said 25 per cent, I do not mean 25 per cent. of Western Australia, because the greater portion of the State is a waste land. I mean 25 per cent. of the area which is capable of development in any direction. That population requires timber. You see what a small portion of the country is capable of producing any timber. I consider that every acre of prime timber country, in a country like this, which has so little timber of value, should be reserved.

12119. What is the general Australian position in regard to timber reserves?—Most unsatisfactory. Everywhere it is the same story as this, only some of the States have gone further on the downward grade, and have taken steps at last to stop the destruction of timber, for settlement purposes at any rae. Victoria has laid aside four million acres, and New South Wales has given her Forestry Department very wide powers, and is laying down also five million acres for forestry purposes. They will be permanent forestry reserves only alienable by Act of Parliament. Queensland is doing the same thing. Tasmania is the only country which is in worse position than we are. Perhaps we should not even say that, because Tasmania has not taxed the industry as we have. Tasmania does not get much in the way of dues out of her forests from the timber millers, nor does Tasmania carry on much forestry work. Here we have taxed the timber industry to the extend of just under half a million pounds during the last 20 years, and this money has come out of the miller's pockets. We have not put back a penny of this into the forests. I do not think really our position is better than that of Tasmania. The total value of the timber cut since the inception of the industry is £25,000,000. At the last forestry conference, the whole question of the Commonwealth situation from the forestry standpoint was going into, and a resolution was passed to the effect that, at the next Premiers' conference, it should be brought up and very strongly stressed that, owing to the area of timber throughout Australia being so small in comparison with the needs of the country in the future, every area of prime timber should be reserved.

12120. In reserving three million acres here we should only be following the other States in the reservations they have made, or contemplate making?—Yes. If we did our duty as regards the whole of the Commonwealth as one great country, we should reserve 25 million acres in Western Australia alone. Going on the supposition that Australia will develop as other countries have, we should require 25 million acres. Of course we have not the country within the 30in. rainfall to enable us to put that area under forest.

12121. By Mr. CLARKSON: What area is in included in that portion coloured red?—About 13 million acres.

12122. By Mr. VENN: The only difficulty in the Lands Department and the Forestry Department would be the karri land?—On the contrary, I have had great difficulty over the jarrah land. Only a little time ago very strong steps were taken with a view of alienating Millar's old jarrah lease lying between Collie and Wellington. They wanted 14,000 acres of it. I was able to point out that there were, according to our classification sheets, only 3,000 acres of red gum and blackbutt country in that forest which is suitable for alienation. It took me a long time and much writing to convince the Lands Department that this was a fact. The whole preliminary plan of subdivision was laid down before I was able to convince them.

12123. Jarrah country, as a rule, is not fit for cultivation?—I would not like to make any statement about that. This is country which will grow magnificent timber, but I should not like to take it up from the agricultural standpoint.

12124. By the CHAIRMAN: The ironstone hills, constituting as they do such hungry country, could not be deemed suitable for agriculture?—That is true, as a rule, but this particular land is exceptional. There is very good orchard country along Bussel's Brook. There are about 3,000 acres of really good country to be picked out of the jarrah country there. Millars were able to take 80 loads of jarrah to the acre off this country, which is absolutely unheard of in any other part of the State. The average is nearer eight or 12 loads.

12125. What did the millers contend before the Arbitration Court was the cost of a load of timber?—I understand they refused to give any figures.

12126. Have they not been elicited indirectly?—No. Figures were got out by the timber board some years ago, but have no value to-day, because the costs have gone up enormously. The millers were asked to give figures, but I believe refused to do so.

12127. What is the position of the Tuart forests in this State?—That is the one class of country in which the State has taken an interest, from the forestry point of view. From the early days they realised the value of the Tuart, but unfortunately the best of it is in private hands. The only forest reserves in Western Australia are Tuart reserves. Of these there is only good reserve near Capel. There is another near Capel which is practically valueless form the forestry standpoint. A third reserve near Lake Clifton is also a poor one in comparison with the